Deacon as an office but not Deaconess

The word for " deacon" -- that is various forms of diaconos is translated deacon or deacons four times in the KJV . The rest of the 26 or so other times it is used it is translated servant or minister and refers to all classes of people Christians and non Christians, men and women alike. Consequently all men and all women in the church are servants or ministers. There would have been no distinction between the words deacon and minister or servant for those reading the original Greek Bible.

But just as all old people would be elders only men occupied the office of "elder" Even though 1Tim 5:2 uses the feminine form of presbyter. We do not conclude therefore that there was an office of "presbyteress" or "eldress"

Since there are qualifications for diakonoi and they are men who are set apart to be officially deacons or servants and not all servants or ministers were set apart to an office it should not follow that there is an official office of deaconess because all Christian women, like Phoebe, are ministers or a "deacanon." The Greek form for Phoebe is deacanon. It seems to me to be a neuter form. I do not know what that means.

All Christian men are ministers or servants but it does not follow that all Christian men are officially set apart to be deacons or ministers.

So also since all Christian women are servants or ministers it also does not follow that they have all been set apart officially to an Office.

I do not think that not having an office will keep Godly men and women from doing work that needs to be done in the church. Most of the serving responsibilities in the church can and should be shared by all Christians without holding an office. In England the indigenous churches of Christ have always had women song leaders and those who prepare and pass communion or the collection. All share the responsibilities of worship (except that women to not "preside")

I do not see the qualifications for deaconeses in the NT so there doesn't appear to be an office. There are qualifications for deacons' wives but these too are to qualify the deacon for his office not for the wife's office. The fact is that women in the N T served in the Lord's work in worship, and evangelism, but it would take some real stretching to find an office for women in the New Testament. I believe that all men and women in the N T were evangelists but I don't believe there was any women who had the hands of the elders laid on her to set her apart and who held the Office of evangelist. Let us do the work whether we have officials or not. Me, I have always been in favor of and always called on women to lead in prayer, and I am in favor of women and men sharing the responsibilities of doing what is needed in a worship service except for preaching.

There are other things about authority that might be said but I will reserve that for another time so as not to confuse what I have just written.

Manolo Christian churches in the Philippines

It is amazing to me after looking at the encyclopedia references you gave me to Iglesia ni Christo and Manalo that none of them mention his relationship to the Restoration Movement churches of the 19^th century who can be traced back to the Campbell-Stone (et.al.) Movement which was intended to restore the primitive church of Christ in faith and deeds and practice. The reason is that that fellowship which is now divided into three main streams: Disciples of Christ, and Church of Christ acapella. The latter defected from the former officially about 1910 but was already a separate fellowship in a united communion through the last part of the 19^th century. The Disciples of Christ sent missionaries to the Philippines just before 1900. The Disciples reflected the lack of faith that was characteristic of the mainline denominations who had accepted "modernism" and espoused what was known as the social gospel prominent among Protestants from the late 1800 through the mid 1900s. Among the Bible believers among those missionaries was one Lesley Wolfe who established a number of churches named Church of Christ, -Iglesia ni Cristo in Tugalog. This conservative fellowship of Bible believers (orthodox in their views) suffered the recall of their Bible believing missionaries to be replaced by planters of better crops and growers of better pigs. It was actually from Filipino preachers that the third fellowship of the group was born, -- churches of Christ and Christian churches (independent). They had been part of the Disciples movement but defected and created a rallying point that true to the Bible churches in that larger fellowship could look to without starting a denomination. Many independent churches withdrew by 1920 and left to be known as Independent churches of Christ and Christian churches. It is from this independent movement of churches with no central headquarters or national organization and particularly the congregation known as Crusada Iglesia ni Cristo in Manila (Quiapo) that Manalo learned his concepts of a "restored church" after he was bapized by Lesley Wolfe and learned other things like immersion baptism for the remission of sins and the name of his Church, the Iglesia ni Cristo, deemed to be the "true" and "restored" name of the church.

I am not sure of his relationship to other denominations when Lesley Wolfe met and baptized him but it was from the churches of Christ that he adapted the teachings of restoring the true church of the Apostles, and then started the cult of the Angel of the East in Revelation. I had not actually heard of his claim to be the ravenous bird.

The church buildings that he built make his cult the most visible in the Philippines. They are very similar to Mosques with minarets and other embellishments, with beautiful domes and colors adorning these extradinarily huge and impressive edifices. Until the 1980's the entrances of the fenced grounds were flanked by machine gun turrets manned by armed guards which were not removed until after strong government pressure. When I saw them for the first time the turrets were still there sans machine guns. Attendance at all services is required of the members and they will seek evidence of attendance at a sister church to show at home, if they happen to be away traveling. Not difficult to receive since there are so many of them in the Philippines. But because of the name they will sometimes show up at our congregations seeking a paper to prove they attended a service away from home.

The fellowship that I am a part of (churches of Christ among the "independents") has gone on to train and ordain 1,000's of Filipino evangelists in five Bible College’s that I know of, and there are now, not hundreds, but thousands of Iglesia ni Cristo churches (that is a redundancy) in the Philippines and due to immigration the Filipino’s have their own convention among the Christian churches, most but not all by any means living on the west coast. None of these Filipino churches of Christ share anything but the name with the Manalo churches.

Incidently, Lesley Wolfe was imprisoned by the Japanese in Manila for the duration of WWII and weighed 70 pounds at the time of liberation. He died 3 months after liberation.

Albert Barnes on Revelation 19 written before 1850

Q:

Brother Fred,

Good to hear from you. Hope you like the CD. I am still teaching Revelation on Sunday and Wednesday nights. Really has be an eye opening lesson. Have you noticed how the Pope and Islam are budding up? Very interesting! How about the "Freedom of religion" in Afghanistan and Iraq's new Constitution? Very interesting! Well better go for now.

In Christ,

Glen

A:

And out of the mouth of the false prophet.The word rendered false prophet--qeudoprofhtou--does not before occur in the book of Revelation, though the use of the article would seem to imply that some well-known power or influence was referred to by this. Compare Barnes on "Re 10:3". The word occurs in other places in the New Testament, Mt 7:15; 24:11,24; Mr 13:22; Lu 6:26; Ac 13:6; 2Pe 2:1; 1Jo 4:1; and twice elsewhere in the book of Revelation, with the same reference as here, Re 19:20; 20:10. In both these latter places it is connected with the "beast." "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet." "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are." It would seem then to refer to some power that was similar to that of the beast, and that was to share the same fate in the overthrow of the enemies of the gospel. As to the application of this, there is no opinion so probable as that it alludes to the Mohammedan power--not strictly the Turkish power, for that was to be "dried up" or to diminish; but to the Mohammedan power as such, that was still to continue for awhile in its rigour, and that was yet to exert a formidable influence against the gospel, and probably in some combination, in fact, if not in form, with Paganism and the Papacy. The reasons for this opinion are,

(a) that this was referred to in the former part of the book is one of the formidable powers that would arise, and that would materially affect the destiny of the world--and it may be presumed that it would be again referred to in the account of the final consummation- see Re 9:1-11;

(b) the name "false prophet" would better than any other describe has that power, and would naturally suggest it in future times--for to no one that ever appeared in our world could the name be so properly applied as to Mohammed;

All the best in Jesus name,

Fred

Psalms Hymns and Spiritual Songs

Q:

Dear Fred

Your information on Revelation and on alcohol have been most helpful to me in my christian walk.

Do you have any information or lessons on the use of musical instruments in worship. I'm not sure what you believe on this topic. I think it is ok to use instruments because the NT tells up to use Psalms in worship and some of the Psalms extol the use of various types of instruments.

However, in the church of Christ I attend in Corby, England, they say it is sinful.

Anything you have on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

(Name Removed)

A:

Dear ------,

RE: your question about the non use of instrumental music in British Old path churches of Christ. I have mixed feelings about the answer. Read on:

I don't think you have to have a musical instrument to go to heaven. So if I were in a fellowship where they did not use it I would be low key about it and enjoy the good parts of the fellowship.

But to say that it is a sin to use an instrument at any time in British churches is an Americanism. Most of the British churches in the Old Path and in the old Association that the Old Path was once a part of never used instrumental music in the "one or two cup" Lord's supper service but many of them, even of the Old Path would use instrumental music in singing in what was called the evening Gospel service. To say that instrumental music accomapanying a song in worship to God is always sinful is an Americanism and is not a part of British churches of Christ tradition nor of the Bible. That hard shell idea was introduced after the 50's and some of the Old Pathers adopted the hard line,. In fact some are more caustic than the "Antis" from the USA. I met one from around the Corby area years ago. He did not have the Love of Jesus in his heart.

However there are sensible brothers in the Old Path who see fellowship with those who differ on instrumental music as a dear thing while they themselves are very "conservative" and would never use a musical instrument in a Lord's supper service in their own assembly . I admit though, that even though I advocate the use of instruments of music in worship as scriptural I prefer they not be used while the communion service is under way. Quiet meditation is what I prefer.

You may or may not know the name of Alvin Jennings who published the Star Magazine and who is a devout acapello worshipper from Texas. I debated Alvin years ago in the early 60's and presented material that I did not think he could answer. In my eyes I bested him! Pride! Later I regretted the debate and decided not to debate the issue again but to have as much fellowship with brethren as possible. Of course that is not possible with someone who is so bigoted that he sees anyone -- no matter how faithful in all other ways -- as hell bound if he sings while a piano or guitar is playing. Oh by the way as far as preference goes I hate organs. Especially the way the Brits play them in church. Awful! It sounds like they are designed to destroy worship.

Anyway I did cooperative work with Alvin Jeniings later and it resulted in the conversion of Alan Marshall whom you know. I used Alvin's special talents and he willingly helped me. I think that makes more sense than debating.

However for study sake What you can do is to look up in the LXX (Septuagint) Bible the word Psallo and its derivitives and see the context that it is in. That is the best way to define a word. You will find that the arguement from "Etimology" is false. That is the noninstrument position is that the word underwent a change in meaning over time. Initially it meant pluck the strings of an instrument, then later changed to be instrument with singing and by N.T, times it meant sing only. There was no such development of the meaning of the word clearly seen in the LXX. When in 285 BC and when Timothy would have read that version, right? the only version he could have read because he was a Greek and not a Hebrew speaker the meaning of the word in the LXX would be what it meant to Timothy. Right? So If Paul wrote to Timothy and said to "Sing and Psallo" and Timothy did not know what that word meant, then he would look in the LXX (The Bible to Timothy) if he did not know the word and see how the the word was used in his time. You will find that in the LXX it is a generic word not specific. Some times it means play an instrument only, and in some other contexts sometimes it means sing with an instrument and some contexts it means sing only with the voice with no instrument. Thus all at the same time in 285 BC and when Timothy would have read it about 50 to 60 AD the word would have meant MUSIC of any generic kind. It could be: Foot stomping, hand clapping, stringed instruments, clanging a cymbal or banging a tamborine, or singing, or singing and playing etc., etc, YES any kind of music. Look it up and see that the word is generic in the LXX. Thus the statement that says by N.T, times the word meant "vocal music only" is false. So the passage in Eph 5:19 is not a redundancy as the Non Instrument brethren suppose i.e. "Sincerely Sing and sing" but it is "sing and make music sincerely" the phrase "en ta cardia" or "in the heart" has got to mean do it sincerely with all your heartfelt feelings. Right? The suggestion that the heart is the instrument is a bit dumb, don't you think?

Any way I still think it better for you -- in a fellowship where they do not use instruments and have a keen love of the Bible -- to enjoy the fellowship and be low key about what has not been able to be settled by good men who have preceded us. I like music, but music is funny. Different styles are offensive to some and not to others. It is like one man's cup of tea is another's cup of bitter herbs. Enjoy the blessings that are around you, and with study, settle the things that trouble you about this issue in your own mind. But don't rock the boat in the fellowship that you are in. Rather: thank the Lord that your brothers in the assembly where you worship will let you drink out of the same cup with them.

But study the LXX use of Psallo and you will see something clear.

all the best

Fred P Miller

2020 Completes the Sequence in Revelation predicted in 1692

The Incredible Predications of Robert Fleming

which were published in 1701

I have quoted the comments of Albert Barnes about Robert Fleming in my book "A Panorama of the Gospel Age," in Chapter 9 "The Fall of the Papacy." An excerpt appears below. Please read beyond this excerpt: I recently obtained a complete copy of Robert Fleming's works originally called "Apocalyptical Key" and reprinted under the title of "The Rise and Fall of the Papacy." The former historical interpreters have quoted Fleming's predictions relating to the remarkable coincidence of the events of 1848. But even more remarkable are his predictions of events in 1900 and 2000. Read on.

In the quotation Albert Barnes, wrote (1851) at the beginning of the last days of the Papal States.1848 to 1870. during which the States of the Church were taken from the Papal dominion. In 1701 (approximately 150 years previously) Fleming predicted the blow on the Papal States would begin in 1848. Incredibly Garibaldi removed the first portion of the States from the Papacy in 1848, and then a piece at a time, the rest of the territory was lost to Papal dominion culminating in the complete loss of the States under Victor Emmanuel in 1870. Thus 20 years accomplished the predicted event after the stated date of beginning. Read on in Barnes!

"'In this connection I may insert here the remarkable calculation of Robert Fleming, in his work entitled "Apocalyptical Key, or the pouring out of the Vials," first published in 1701. It is in the following words: The 5th Vial which is poured out on the seat of the beast, or the dominions which more immediately belong to and depend on the Roman See; that, I say, this judgment will probably begin about the year 1794 and expire about A.D. 1848; or that the duration of it upon this supposition will be the space of 54 years. For I do suppose that seeing the Pope received the title of Supreme Bishop no sooner than A.D. 606, he cannot be supposed to have any vial poured upon his seat immediately (so as to ruin his authority so signally as this judgment must be supposed to do) until the year 1848, which is the date of the 1260 years in prophetical account when they are reckoned from A.D. 606. But yet we are not to imagine that this will totally destroy the Papacy, (though it will exceedingly weaken it,) for we find that still in being and alive when the next vial is poured out.' Now Barnes': comment: [pp 125, 126 Cobbin's edition] It is a circumstance [says Barnes] remarkably in accordance with this calculation, that in the year 1848 the Pope was actually driven away to Gaeta, [imprisoned] and that at present time (1851) he is restored though evidently with diminished power."

1870 completed the loss of power. It was not until 1929: Well, read another excerpt from my book here quoting me.

The fifth bowl began to be poured on the Papal dominions in 1848 when Garibaldi actually imprisoned the Pope and divested him of his temporal lands. Barnes therefore wrote at the time that this bowl began and did not see the completion of it in 1870 when those dominions were taken by Victor Emmanuel and the Papacy was left with nothing at all in the sense of an earthly state. Sixty or so years after 1870, in 1929, the Papacy would be given sovereign power over the one hundred acre Vatican. In an agreement made with Mussolini in 1929, Vatican city was recognized as a sovereign state and the Pope recognized the kingdom of Italy. The Pope formally accepted one billion, seven hundred fifty million lire for the territory which was taken from him in 1870. He had begun his return to political and temporal authority. They had not repented!

I apologize for taking so long to set the stage but what follows is remarkable indeed. Because Robert Fleming did not stop there in his interpretive predictions. He extended them to the year 2,700 ! What he had to say about the next two periods however is astounding indeed.

Before I describe them I want to remind you that in my book I had predicted the imminent fall of Communism and the Soviet Union which indeed is now in the past. I also predicted that the fall of the Papacy and Islamic nations opening to religious and political freedom are near future events and in fact they are "imminent." What did Robert Fleming think would follow the blow on the "seat of the beast" which he said would begin in 1848 which indeed did happen and was accomplished within 20 years.

Fleming predicted that among the events of the period from 1848 to 1900 would be the decline and extinction of the Turkish Empire! He predicted the events and the dates! in the late 1600's (1692) and published it in 1701! What is even more remarkable is that the decline of the Turkish Empire did occupy the major events of the last half of the 19th century and within less than 20 years after 1900 the Turkish Empire was no more. Its historical lamp was extinguished in 1917. Mr Fleming is truly extraordinary! But that does not end his predictions. What did he think of the next period of history beyond 1917.

Fleming saw the gradual but complete disappearance of the Roman Papacy. But immediately after the fall of The Turkish Empire he sees a spiritual war attempting the complete destruction of the church of Christ as occupying events that lead up to the last part of the 20th century He then predicted that the last half of the 20th century would see the development of events that would be completed by the year 2000 and that the demise of the Papacy would follow shortly as a result! Fleming names 2000 as the terminal point.

Let me sum up Robert Fleming's "historical interpretations" of prophecy.

1. In 1692 he predicted that the 5th vial which would fall on the seat of authority of the Papal system would take place in 1848. It actually did and was completed in 20 years.
2. He predicted that the decline of the Turkish Empire would occupy the last half of the 19th century; the events would be complete by 1900. This indeed is what happened and The Turkish Empire joined the dust bin of history within less than 20 years after1900.
3. Fleming predicted (in 1692) the last half of the 20th century would see the completion of events by the year 2000 that will end the Papacy! Does that mean that within 20 years we should see the complete end of the Papacy? That has been my own conclusion predicted and recorded on tape recordings before 1970 but not in print until 1990. Thus seeing Fleming's complete printed works only recently has amazed me with his insight reaching far beyond his oft quoted analysis of the 5th vial beginning in 1848!

Further, incredibly he concluded the same thing that I had arrived at, that is, that the end of the Papacy will be associated with a resurgence of the power of the Christian religion. He so states on page 81 that coincident with the fall of the Papacy will be a parousia similar to the power of Christ in historical time at the destruction of Jerusalem or the end of paganism in 325. Fleming in 1692 concluded that the church of Christ will enjoy a period where opposition to the Gospel will be relatively slight and an unprecedented ingathering of the faithful. Many have heard the same conclusion that I had arrived at independently in the late 1960's. So let it be "even so come Lord Jesus."

addenda. In response to questions:


From:
To: fmoeller@ao.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: Flemings' predictions in 1692

I love this stuff, Fred. Thank you! Please see my one math problem, below, in my JK to Fred I'm not "getting it" on this one thing.

"of Supreme Bishop no sooner than A.D. 606, he cannot be supposed to have any vial poured upon his seat immediately (so as to ruin his authority so signally as this judgment must be supposed to do) until the year 1848, which is the date of the 1260 years in prophetical account when they are reckoned from A.D. 606. But yet we are not to imagine that this will totally destroy the Papacy,

JK to Fred:
606 + 1260 = 1866, not 1848. What am I missing, here? I am not being contentious. I am not seeing this right. What am I not seeing?

Answer:

What Fleming did was to adjust the calculation of the prophetic time relative to the calendar time. The prophecy is calculated in 360 day years which was a calendar year at the time of the initial prophecy and is the limit which was set when the prophecy was first given in Daniel 7 as time times and half a time;

thus 360 times 3 1/2 is 1260. Then in the application he took the extra 5.25 days in an actual Gregorian calendar year and multiplied it by 1260 and divided that by 365.25 days of the actual calendar and then subtracted the product from the date 1866. thus the problem which he correctly perceived needed the adjustment from the time prophecy to the calendar is:

5.25 X 1260 = 6615 then 6615 / 365.25 = 18.1 then 1866 - 18 = 1848

That is the method of calculation and if you think it out you will see that it is necessary to adjust to the change in the calendar from the time that the figure of 1260 days was first given to the calendar in use at the time of the fulfillment.

Fred

******************************
From:
To: fmoeller@ao.net
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 9:45 AM
Subject: Imminence of Islamic freedom


Hi Brother Fred!


Thank you for your e-mail about prophetic issues. Among many other things, you said: "I also predicted that the fall of the Papacy and Islamic nations opening to religious and political freedom are near future events and in fact they are `imminent.'" In your judgement, how soon will the Islamic nations become open to religious and political freedom? You say these cataclysmic events are "imminent." How imminent? At present Islam makes one-fifth of the world's population largely inaccessible to the gospel. May your "imminent" be in our life time! Should it be, will the church be ready to fill the gargantuan spiritual void that Islam has created?


May you enjoy God's rishest blessings!
In the Bond of Christ,



Answer:

I believe that the period that historical interpreters like Barnes, and Fleming foresaw through the pages of the Apocalypse is linked with the fall of Russia as an enemy of the Gospel and that the end of the Papacy as a political state and Islamic nations opening to religious and political freedom will be seen in the future. say in 100 years, looking back, as a part of the same epoch. Thus, imminent means to me, what the article on Fleming implies -- within 20 years after the terminal date of 2000. perhaps as early as 2010.

It must be remembered that IF historical interpreters are correct the termination is also associated with the "hail storm" "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceedingly great." and as scripture says an "earthquake:" "there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." Thus coincident with the positive things historical interpreters look for is also a PLAGUE, that means a lot of death, and a political revolution of greater proportions than any the world has yet seen. I believe all these events to be imminent within the limits of the definition given above.

your question: , will the church be ready to fill the gargantuan spiritual void that Islam has created? Is beyond my ability except as proposed in the original article. A resurgence of the high level of respect for the Christian ethic formerly enjoyed in the western world is part of the period.

All the best

Fred

Oh yes check this out if you have not seen it It is on my cd rom that you have. the location is found by clicking on "A News Article Predating the Fall of the USSR" which is on the "Home page" index. Or on line at:




**********************

Fred P Miller

Letter from David Mills

David

I will try to answer your question even though it seems slightly abrupt to me.

"Why, all of a sudden, do we add 20 years to all of Fleming's predictions?"

I suggested: Because the approximate time after the terminal date for 1848 extends to 1870 and is 22 years later; and from 1900 to the completion in 1917 aprox. 17 years and the last date given by Fleming is 2000 and thus I have extrapolated approximately 20 years from his two former "guesses" "I won't be unhappy should it happen" either.

It should also be noted that Mr Fleming did not expect the 2nd coming of Jesus in his near future in fact he placed it beyond 2700. But he is a man and not inspired.. But being "right" in the first two periods, 1848 and 1900, of course is of interest to me since I have proposed the same events for the approximately same period which he postulated more than 300 years ago. That is the reason for

"why all of a sudden?"



From:

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 11:27 AM

Subject: Re: Fleming

I have a question about the following:

Let me sum up Robert Fleming's "historical interpretations" of prophecy.

1. In 1692 he predicted that the 5th vial which would fall on the seat of authority of the Papal system would take place in 1848. It actually did and was completed in 20 years.

2. He predicted that the decline of the Turkish Empire would occupy the last half of the 19th century; the events would be complete by 1900. This indeed is what happened and The Turkish Empire joined the dust bin of history within less than 20 years after 1900.

3. Fleming predicted (in 1692) the last half of the 20th century would seethe completion of events by the year 2000 that will end the Papacy! Does that mean that within 20 years we should see the complete end of the Papacy?

"But 1900 was his end terminus for the Turkish Empire and 2000 was his end terminus for the papacy."

No not quite: the dates are the terminus of historical events leading to the end result. The Turkish empire did not expire until 1917. The Papal states suffered their first land loss in 1848 but the land area was not lost to the Papacy until 1870. Thus as the events leading to the loss of termporality were over by 1848 but not complete until 1870 the events leading to the fall of the papacy are all thought by Fleming to be completed by 2000 and the fall of the Papacy will follow accordingly in a period shortly after 2000. I have suggested an extrapolation of 20 years from his earlier good "guesses."

You say: "I understand the first one (1848+20) because Fleming gives that as the beginning terminus. Why add 20 years to these for a "complete" end? Don't get me wrong,

Dead Sea Scrolls and Authenticity

Eiseman

Q:

Hey Uncle Fred. What part of the Dead Sea Scrolls is this punk rock lady,

Exene, talking about? She's into ultra-feminist, goddess worship stuff, though apparently she maintains a certain authentic loathing for the corruption of our corporate, materialistic, homogenized culture. The following was an Internet interview with her conducted by Spin magazine.

Last question comes from Palamas: I am a grad student writing my thesis on allusions to Jesus in punk/alternative music and videos. Could you tell me a little bit about who you think Jesus is.

SPINspy: Wow...if that's not a closer, I don't know what is...

SPINsoul:Golly!

Exene: I recommend you read a book called The Nag Hamadi version of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Especially the Book of Thunder. I think Jesus was a person who believed in the Goddess, he talked about Her, and he believed all life was sacred like a pagan does and he wanted to help liberate people. Then his followers were pushed out of the way and that he was taken over by people who wanted to use his words not to liberate people to enslave them...It's called Christianity. I would suggest to read all the great Goddess books in the last 20 years...like Great Cosmic Mother, White Goddess, Language of the Goddess and The Civilization of the Goddess and the Dead Sea Scrolls...The Bible is like the Reader's Digest version of reality, written by a king.

A:

Dear Jonathan,

I am an "expert" only on the Isaiah Scroll (1Qisa or sometimes just Q, and the Pesher to Habakkuk, 1Qhab). I do not know of the lady you mention nor the books that she cites which contain citings of alledged references to Christianity and Jesus of Nazareth in the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS).

But here are some general comments:

1. First there was and still is a lot of secrecy about the DSS and for a long time they were held back from public scrutiny because the translators wanted to protect their research so they could be first to publish and make money on their work before the general public got a chance to see the materials. In such a climate it was and still is possible to invent any number of "secret" scrolls and form all kinds of conspiracy theories, all of which have been associated with the developing information on the DSS. All the DSS fragments are now available on CD but the cost is prohibitive,-- in the range of several thousand dollars. So I do not own one. Accessing all the scroll fragments is possible but remains very difficult even for scholars.

2. The DSS are greatly over rated as sources of scriptures. The only books of the Bible that are present in a complete or almost complete form are Isaiah and Habakkuk. It is said that all of the books of the Hebrew Scriptures except Esther are represented in the scrolls. That is very misleading since many of the manuscripts ("MSS") are fragments no bigger than a postage stamp and most often are just a page or two of surviving text. If you wanted to find how a particular Hebrew scripture was written in the DSS, the odds are very poor that you would find it. There are no DSS MSS referencing New Testament scripture. The one attempt to claim that a portion of Mark on a small postage stamp size mss (7Q5) proposed by Carsten Thiede (noted and esteemed papyrologist) has been rejected by almost all DSS scholars, me included.

3. There was some attempt early on by those who had sole possession of the scrolls for academic purposes to show links in the Qumran community with the forerunners of Christianity. Disciples of John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth have been proposed.

One of the "in" scholars, Robert Eisenman, had very early in DSS history, written a book attempting to show that the Pesher to Habakkuk is a "coded" description of a struggle with the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth (The Righteous Teacher [moreh tsedek] and the wicked (high) priest [hacohe:n harashah]) There are also individual fragments with a "pierced messiah" text and a "Son of God" text. Those phrases are not a direct quote from a scroll. This is as close as you can come to an oblique reference to something that sounds "prechristian" in the scrolls. You can be certain that there is no direct reference to the disciples of John the Baptist or Jesus of Nazareth or Christianity in the DSS. If there were, the references would be main line book store material and would rock the religious and academic world. The thunder would reverberate world wide and be heard for years. It would not be exposed by some obscure cult or weird lady. There is absolutely no direct reference to anything Christian in the scrolls. Thiede is the only exception to anyone with credibility with his study of the fragment 7Q5. I will forward a short note of my opinion on Thiede's book, "Eye Witness to Jesus."

4. I will repeat it again: There is no direct reference to Christianity in any DSS. The indirect references are cited above. I have written a refutation of conspiracy theories relating to the DSS.

It is also on my CD.

But a more excellent answer to all the hubbub about the "moreh tsedek" etc and writings of alarmists looking for notoriety by making the Scrolls seem to be full of prechristian sources,-- many authors and especially Robert Eisenman -- can be found on my CD if you have access to it. Your mom has a copy. This document is really must reading for you if you are to get an outline grasp of the DSS controversies. it is found on my cd by accessing the Isaiah Commentary Directory, do that from the Index page,-- first link; and find the link at the bottom of the directory named "A More Complete Refutation of Qumran Conspiracy Theory". I also have that online. The author of this essay is missing but it is must reading.

5. I would cast great doubt on any DSS existing that suggested any form of idolatry as a recommended activity. The Qumran Essenes were a bit weird but not idolaters

6 I decided to add the letter I wrote to a questioner about Thiede's work on 7Q5. Here it is:

Dean

I have both the English and the USA editions of Thiede's "Eyewitness to Jesus." It has been some time since I read them and carried on a correspondence with several others going over the evidence. but as I recall there were other Magdelan College papyri documents (not DSS, that were more compelling. I am afraid that after I had gone over all the objections and all the -- what I felt was -- Thiede's really "contrived" reconstructions I came away with more doubts than assurances. The theme is "right down my alley" A fragment of the Gospel of Mark from the apostolic period! What a find that would be! But alas the evidence is very flimsy. I hate to side with the "liberals" especially since some of them (Canadian West for instance) are so arrogant but a thorough reading of all the controversy exposes too many weaknesses in Thiede's claim for 7Q5.

I would be overjoyed by credible evidence but there are too many credulous Christians who diminish rather than support the power of the truth. I am a believer trusting in the power of His crucifixion and resurrection but I try not to be credulous.

Sorry to disappoint you. (end)

Jonathan; let me repeat one more time: You can be certain that there is no direct reference to the disciples of John the Baptist or Jesus of Nazareth or Christianity in any of the DSS.

All the best

Fred P Miller